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NA to Turbo Fuel and Timing Maps Discussion

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  • NA to Turbo Fuel and Timing Maps Discussion

    Ok, here's the situation. You just completed a NA to T conversion: 9.0:1 compression, T3 turbocharger, 260cc injectors, 88-89 ECCS with turbo software. With this, you realize some shortcomings with the compatibility of the software running your conversion. The 88-89 turbo software is designed to run a lower compression engine and a smaller turbocharger. You now have a higher compression engine with a slightly bigger turbocharger. Also, the low end fuel and timing maps of the turbo software do not match those of a NA tune.

    So, how would YOU alter the timing and fuel maps, maybe taking the mean, median, or mode of the two, to take advantage of the low end torque provided by the higher compression as well as the higher compression under boost?

    I ask, because this topic is rarely discussed. When ever something is changed on the engine that effects power, the ECCS software must be changed to take advantage of these changes. The ECCS cannot recognize that you just hooked it up to a NA block with a larger turbocharger.

    This applies to any conversion that changes the mechanics of what the ECCS is programmed to control. ie., Jim Wolf tune on a NA block.
    [strike:ff0tp92h]1984 300ZXT[/strike:ff0tp92h]
    [strike:ff0tp92h]1986 300ZX 2x2 NA2T[/strike:ff0tp92h]
    2000 Porsche Boxster
    2007 Toyota Yaris

  • #2
    I forget who it was, but they averaged the timing map from the turbo and non-turbo ecus and said it made a huge difference

    Comment


    • #3
      This is a very good topic to discuss, but it's a very detailed conversation a lot of which is simply a matter of opinion.

      If you compare the NA and turbo binaries you will notice that the NA runs lean for 90% of the map, while a turbo car begins to head down to 12.0 right before boost onset and runs about 11.0 under load (from memory using a stock ECU/boost).

      Side note: Now the NA and turbo TP scales are not the same, the NA bin uses 'more' of the map under vac. Take a turbo car running no boost and it will be right near the middle columns, while an NA car will reach a few columns higher. It's simple... because the NA engine will not be moving more air, they give it better resolution for the supposed amount of air it "should" be metering. With that and just looking at the maps, you can see it would be a very BAD idea for someone to run a NA computer/injectors in a turbo car.

      My advice is not to average, but rather only take a few hints from the NA bin. If you look at my old posted timing map, I was running 45-48 degrees of timing in all areas under vac. This timing adjustment alone made the engine respond noticeably better. I would dare say that outside of boost, the 8.3:1 engine had almost the pull of the 9:1 engine I had in there a few months before.

      Careful fuel tuning right around the boost onset made the car respond even better. Essentially I tried to target between a 13.2-12.9 AFR as boost was coming up through 1-4PSI, then run as much timing as it would take (which on my 7.8:1 engine was still over 40 degrees) to get faster boost response.

      Using a dyno you can make drastic increases in power over a short time if you know what you're doing. Take a look at my before and after dyno tuning graph and you can see the difference even before boost comes on, as boost is increasing, and through the rest of the powerband. While I went in there with a SUPER conservative tune, I didn't expect to gain better response and almost 40HP for my efforts. (both runs are 15.8PSI on the same setup, only the timing and fuel maps were adjusted)

      http://www.redz31.com/images/dynographs ... e16PSI.JPG

      Have you planned to do anything about the maf yet? For now, you can always raise the TTPmax and the tp of the last couple columns, then pump up the fueling in the top end if it starts to run towards lean.

      As for tuning your timing, all I can say is stay conservative and listen very closely. I was a full 5-7 degrees back off any audible detonation on the dyno, for a good margin of safety. I have fairly good hearing and can hear det pretty well, but it's nowhere near an ideal way to tune. Bernardd recommended this, and I am going to try it when I get time:
      http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=109282

      As for how much timing under boost, as much as it will safely take. Tuning a turbo car could be considered easy in this respect. Give it safe fueling and as much timing as you can run because the point at which you have too much timing advance (and hence cylinder pressure peaks too early to make any additional power) is going to be well beyond your detonation threshold on any pump gasoline.

      Comment


      • #4
        good info ... i'd like to see other people who have experience in ECCS tuning to chime in too. The direction of this discussion isn't focused on me and my specific scenario, but for the Z31 whole community, since it appears that Z31 gearheads are becoming more aware of the potential of a turbocharged NA block and moving towards that direction. With this discussion, we will be more aware of what will need to be done to gain the greatest and safest potential out of turbocharged NA block.

        Me, HondaHater and Stinky have been discussing the problems of not revising the tune a turbocharged Z after it has had a NA block transplant. Specifically, HondaHater's 12 sec "Black Bitch". I believe with the right tune (and better traction) he can hit mid to low 11's.
        [strike:ff0tp92h]1984 300ZXT[/strike:ff0tp92h]
        [strike:ff0tp92h]1986 300ZX 2x2 NA2T[/strike:ff0tp92h]
        2000 Porsche Boxster
        2007 Toyota Yaris

        Comment


        • #5
          raidon84300zx wrote: good info ... i'd like to see other people who have experience in ECCS tuning to chime in too.
          So would I!

          raidon84300zx wrote: The direction of this discussion isn't focused on me and my specific scenario, but for the Z31 whole community, since it appears that Z31 gearheads are becoming more aware of the potential of a turbocharged NA block and moving towards that direction. With this discussion, we will be more aware of what will need to be done to gain the greatest and safest potential out of turbocharged NA block.
          Well, each situation is different. As soon as somebody puts on a different turbo, modified cams, intake, fuel octane rating, and drives in a different environment than you, the tune should change accordingly. I like to say there is a different tightrope to walk to find the potential of each setup. I hope people can benefit from every discussion that takes place here.

          raidon84300zx wrote:
          Me, HondaHater and Stinky have been discussing the problems of not revising the tune a turbocharged Z after it has had a NA block transplant. Specifically, HondaHater's 12 sec "Black Bitch". I believe with the right tune (and better traction) he can hit mid to low 11's.
          I have no doubt in my mind that his car will do mid-low 11's, he's already there with the trap speed! It can only get better.

          Comment


          • #6
            also taking into account p&p heads and methanol injection. my biggest problem right now is traction. it owns me. i ran a 12.2 something at 117 with a 1.81 60` then with more boost and a 2.0 60` ran a 12.2 at 121. but no doubt i could benifit from a real dyno tune (not dyno jet) but time on something like a dyno dynamics dyno. i think a good tune with the same traction issues would net me the .3 i`m looking for.

            Exercising my constitutional right to be awesome

            1.5.2. Podium winning cars do NOT need to be running at the checkered flag
            good thing....

            Comment


            • #7
              autoworkZ wrote: also taking into account p&p heads and methanol injection. my biggest problem right now is traction. it owns me. i ran a 12.2 something at 117 with a 1.81 60` then with more boost and a 2.0 60` ran a 12.2 at 121. but no doubt i could benifit from a real dyno tune (not dyno jet) but time on something like a dyno dynamics dyno. i think a good tune with the same traction issues would net me the .3 i`m looking for.
              Absolutely, there are many variables.

              Traction is also my current problem. Your experience parallels my own so exactly it's not even funny; it's almost scary.

              About three years ago I was running 12.2's at 112 with 1.8 60's with a nitrous'd stock turbo/fuel on 9:1 compression.

              Then I was running 12.2's at 124 with 2.3 60' times with the upgraded turbo and FMU and bad traction and gearbox issues.

              Now I'm running no nitrous and trapped at 116 shifting 1-3 because I broke second on the first pass. She just will not let me break her into the 11's :?

              Comment


              • #8
                Continuing the discussion, let me add a slightly different, more situational scenario.

                I'm going to be running a T3/T4 50 trim wheel on my 9.0:1 NA block. My old setup was the 8.3:1 coupled with the paltry T25 (borrowed straight from an SS). Now with the T3/T4 having an even greater potential than the stock T3, what if anything would change tuning wise? In the mean time, I'm going to be using stock fuel, ECU, and MAF. As I get more funds, I'll upgrade the rest. I'm still a bit in the dark of what my limits will be with the stock turbo fuel and the T3/T4. I'll be running a MKIV Intercooler as well.

                Thoughts/Ideas?
                Originally posted by Andrew84zx
                tell her your car is so fast it will make her panties fly off
                545 RWHP & 540 RWTQ
                VG30ET.com Member

                Comment


                • #9
                  FlawleZ wrote: Continuing the discussion, let me add a slightly different, more situational scenario.

                  I'm going to be running a T3/T4 50 trim wheel on my 9.0:1 NA block. My old setup was the 8.3:1 coupled with the paltry T25 (borrowed straight from an SS). Now with the T3/T4 having an even greater potential than the stock T3, what if anything would change tuning wise? In the mean time, I'm going to be using stock fuel, ECU, and MAF. As I get more funds, I'll upgrade the rest. I'm still a bit in the dark of what my limits will be with the stock turbo fuel and the T3/T4. I'll be running a MKIV Intercooler as well.

                  Thoughts/Ideas?
                  To put it simply you will be moving more air with less boost. I would not run over 10 PSI with any aftermarket turbo on the un-modified stock fuel system. There's really nothing that will change tuning wise except for needing to adjust fuel and timing for the new setup to keep it "safe" for raised boost levels, just like any other engine.

                  I guess I don't really see what the question is. Are you essentially asking the difference in tuning an engine with a dinky turbo compared to one with a nicely sized one?

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