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This is 4 anyone who is serious bout building an engine!

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  • This is 4 anyone who is serious bout building an engine!

    And I dont mean just putting an engine together. I mean actualy designing and MAKING pieces to work the way you want.

    This is a site that one of my performance books recomends looking at and I am impressed. LOTS of good stuff to know in here!

    http://www.grapeaperacing.com/GrapeApeR ... /index.cfm
    85 Z31 6.0 LSX turbo 766whp/792wtq
    04 GTO, LS6, big cam, porting, N20... underway for summertime daily driver.

  • #2
    There is some good info there. Thanks, hopefully that will come in handy next winter when I rebuild the engine I pulled out of my 85 today. 8)

    As I read through some of the info I remembered a question about something I'm not sure I really understand: "Decking or Decked"- exactly what does that mean? Ive heard or read it many times but the descriptions never really give me a full understanding of what it means. :shock:
    Just stand back and throw money.
    Performance costs money.
    Reliable performance costs more.

    Comment


    • #3
      OR-Zman wrote: There is some good info there. Thanks, hopefully that will come in handy next winter when I rebuild the engine I pulled out of my 85 today. 8)

      As I read through some of the info I remembered a question about something I'm not sure I really understand: "Decking or Decked"- exactly what does that mean? Ive heard or read it many times but the descriptions never really give me a full understanding of what it means. :shock:
      Do you mean the block and heads? When you get them decked you take them to the machine shop and they make sure that everything is perfectly flat where the head gasket goes. Both the heads and the block.
      85 Z31 6.0 LSX turbo 766whp/792wtq
      04 GTO, LS6, big cam, porting, N20... underway for summertime daily driver.

      Comment


      • #4
        [quote]SATAN wrote:
        Originally posted by OR-Zman
        There is some good info there. Thanks, hopefully that will come in handy next winter when I rebuild the engine I pulled out of my 85 today. 8)

        As I read through some of the info I remembered a question about something I'm not sure I really understand: "Decking or Decked"- exactly what does that mean? Ive heard or read it many times but the descriptions never really give me a full understanding of what it means. :shock:
        Do you mean the block and heads? When you get them decked you take them to the machine shop and they make sure that everything is perfectly flat where the head gasket goes. Both the heads and the block.
        don't forget that if you deck your heads you are altering your combustion chamber volume and compression ratio

        you can only deck heads/blocks to a point (they usually have little indicators cast into the surface)

        Comment


        • #5
          More importantly, when decking either the heads or the block....your are also effectively altering the crank>>>to>>>cam timing.
          *You'd be surprised at how just a little material can make a larger difference than expected if using a degree wheel to time things when re-assembling.
          This is where(shamless plug) Russ's Adjustable Cam Gears come into play!
          Engine tuning by means of a standalone, or live edit, or Nistune will only go so far. The electrical end is only 1/2 the battle. The mechanical is just as critical to get the results you expect.
          I am here to help...

          Comment


          • #6
            Dan-TSS wrote: More importantly, when decking either the heads or the block....your are also effectively altering the crank>>>to>>>cam timing.
            *You'd be surprised at how just a little material can make a larger difference than expected if using a degree wheel to time things when re-assembling.
            This is where(shamless plug) Russ's Adjustable Cam Gears
            come into play!
            Engine tuning by means of a standalone, or live edit, or Nistune will only go so far. The electrical end is only 1/2 the battle. The mechanical is just as critical to get the results you expect.
            Yeah the russ gears are cool but I have a hard time paying that much for somthing that I can only move back and forth. I wish I could taylor each, the intake and the exhaust. Meh, so since I cant and I didnt want to pay the xxx dollars for russ's I just made my own morgan style and they work great. Just not as adjustable as the russ's :roll:
            85 Z31 6.0 LSX turbo 766whp/792wtq
            04 GTO, LS6, big cam, porting, N20... underway for summertime daily driver.

            Comment


            • #7
              Thanks guys. I had thought for years that decking the heads was as you explained Satan, what has confused me more recently is what Dan pointed out about the crank to cam timing issue.

              Dan- If I am understanding you correctly, the change in timing would actually be somewhat detrimental unless corrected with adjustable cam gears?
              Just stand back and throw money.
              Performance costs money.
              Reliable performance costs more.

              Comment


              • #8
                OR-Zman wrote: Thanks guys. I had thought for years that decking the heads was as you explained Satan, what has confused me more recently is what Dan pointed out about the crank to cam timing issue.

                Dan- If I am understanding you correctly, the change in timing would actually be somewhat detrimental unless corrected with adjustable cam gears?
                It depends on how much you take out. If you are only shaving off .006" then it wont do shit to your timing. then again the .006" that it would be off is probably still within tolorances. But anytime you move the cam gears either toward or away from the crank gear then it would effect the valve timing. Honestly most VG engines dont suffer from warped heads or blocks so any machining you do most likley will not effect valve timing enough for you to even notice.
                85 Z31 6.0 LSX turbo 766whp/792wtq
                04 GTO, LS6, big cam, porting, N20... underway for summertime daily driver.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Regardless of how much you take off, it will affect the timing if you choose not to use a head gasket. If you do have your heads and block machined flat enough, you will no longer need a head gasket. Ferrari has been doing this since the mid nineties.
                  Funny stories!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well....
                    Not that I don't believe that it wouldn't hold, But I'd love to see a 20psi 400+hp. boosted 6cylinder with no head gakets.....

                    Something to remember about those thousandths being shaved from the heads and/or block....
                    ~It comes down to this...
                    *The cams are ground to do a specific cycle of events at a specific degree of crank rotation. Any altering will effect that for the application, either in a good way or bad. I have yet to see anyone get too serious here with degreeing the cams. Having both heads in sync is the key. Sure there's an allowance in order to run...but...
                    I purchased a degree wheel a while back and the last two VG30's I have set up shows me that there's quite an allowance that Nissan has. Truley, anyone that has had thier hands in there can tell you from experience that the engine can run with several things off. (Ie. crank off by a tooth, cam gears off together or individually. Many of these scenarios allow the engine to run, but not nearly as efficient as it could obviously)
                    My opinion is:
                    Satan fails to realize that there's alot to be shown for the small chunk that Russ asks for the billet pieces. I know that they are still new on the market, but almost every application I have seen them used in has shown that they were used to get things back into sync and to push the powerband that the cam profile offers in one direction or the other.
                    *I too, have been producing and using the "Morgan Style". What sucks about them is that they are not infinitely adjustable to everyone else.
                    Sure, I can drill them specifically to go straight up as I see needed for the particular application I am working on, but still...not nearly as accurate or adjustable.(Everyone else that buys them from my online store gets the basic options of + - 3,6,9degrees)
                    **What did Jason come back with when he advanced his 270-62H's 5 degrees?...a little better than 40 hp wasn't it? I'd be even more interested to see his results should he take the agonizing effort to degree them before hand then advance them 5 degrees. My best guess is that there's another 10-15hp still hiding due to the lack of being degree'd.
                    Dan 8)
                    I am here to help...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Dan-TSS wrote: Well....
                      Not that I don't believe that it wouldn't hold, But I'd love to see a 20psi 400+hp. boosted 6cylinder with no head gakets.....
                      a 5.75 litre 500hp v12 comes to mind... oh and so does a 500hp 4.3 litre V8...

                      i suppose the closest configuration to our cars (by closest i mean highest cylinder pressure) would be a 600hp 6 litre V12. I'm sure ferrari metallurgy is much better than what we have though 13 head bolts for 3 cylinders may actually give us an advantage.
                      Funny stories!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Dan-TSS wrote: Well....
                        Not that I don't believe that it wouldn't hold, But I'd love to see a 20psi 400+hp. boosted 6cylinder with no head gakets.....

                        Something to remember about those thousandths being shaved from the heads and/or block....
                        ~It comes down to this...
                        *The cams are ground to do a specific cycle of events at a specific degree of crank rotation. Any altering will effect that for the application, either in a good way or bad. I have yet to see anyone get too serious here with degreeing the cams. Having both heads in sync is the key. Sure there's an allowance in order to run...but...
                        I purchased a degree wheel a while back and the last two VG30's I have set up shows me that there's quite an allowance that Nissan has. Truley, anyone that has had thier hands in there can tell you from experience that the engine can run with several things off. (Ie. crank off by a tooth, cam gears off together or individually. Many of these scenarios allow the engine to run, but not nearly as efficient as it could obviously)
                        My opinion is:
                        Satan fails to realize that there's alot to be shown for the small chunk that Russ asks for the billet pieces. I know that they are still new on the market, but almost every application I have seen them used in has shown that they were used to get things back into sync and to push the powerband that the cam profile offers in one direction or the other.
                        *I too, have been producing and using the "Morgan Style". What sucks about them is that they are not infinitely adjustable to everyone else.
                        Sure, I can drill them specifically to go straight up as I see needed for the particular application I am working on, but still...not nearly as accurate or adjustable.(Everyone else that buys them from my online store gets the basic options of + - 3,6,9degrees)
                        **What did Jason come back with when he advanced his 270-62H's 5 degrees?...a little better than 40 hp wasn't it? I'd be even more interested to see his results should he take the agonizing effort to degree them before hand then advance them 5 degrees. My best guess is that there's another 10-15hp still hiding due to the lack of being degree'd.
                        Dan 8)
                        No I am fully aware of the benifits of degreeing your cams.Timing is everything in an engine. But now have the adjustability to degree four cams and have the adjustability of reducing overlap. Thats my point nomatter how moot it is due to the fact that we have sohc. My other point was that even if you degree the cams your butt dyno wont notice shit just from machining the heads. AND if your but dyno does notice it then you should have used different heads because they prolly had to take off a LOT to get it flat if you can feel the difference before and after.

                        Generally people that deal with z31's dont know or care about the benifits of degreeing sohc because either they are broke which is why they drive a z31 or they want a good cheap starter car. People that do know about all the in's and outs of an engine know that dohc with variable valve timing is the way to go. but yet they keep dumping money into thier z31's (this would be me) :roll:
                        85 Z31 6.0 LSX turbo 766whp/792wtq
                        04 GTO, LS6, big cam, porting, N20... underway for summertime daily driver.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          added to favorites

                          Terrible idea putting those wheels on...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            There is ALWAYS someone bigger, badder and faster than YOU!

                            :lol: :lol:
                            *It's all starting to make sense now, thank you.
                            I am here to help...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Dan-TSS wrote: Having both heads in sync is the key. Sure there's an allowance in order to run...but...
                              I purchased a degree wheel a while back and the last two VG30's I have set up shows me that there's quite an allowance that Nissan has. Truley, anyone that has had thier hands in there can tell you from experience that the engine can run with several things off. (Ie. crank off by a tooth, cam gears off together or individually. Many of these scenarios allow the engine to run, but not nearly as efficient as it could obviously)
                              My opinion is:
                              Satan fails to realize that there's alot to be shown for the small chunk that Russ asks for the billet pieces. I know that they are still new on the market, but almost every application I have seen them used in has shown that they were used to get things back into sync and to push the powerband that the cam profile offers in one direction or the other.
                              **What did Jason come back with when he advanced his 270-62H's 5 degrees?...a little better than 40 hp wasn't it? I'd be even more interested to see his results should he take the agonizing effort to degree them before hand then advance them 5 degrees. My best guess is that there's another 10-15hp still hiding due to the lack of being degree'd.
                              Dan 8)
                              I could not agree more on the degreeing issue, and it was around 30lb/ft of torque at peak. I believe I should have degreed my own engine, and probably any VG looking for optimum performance. The tolerance on stock cam gears mounted on the cam is at least 3 degrees, add a tolerance of 3 degrees for the drilled type and you can see why having them Russ' style comes into play; actually using a dial indicator to find the peaks of the cam lobes is the way to do it.

                              Ans SATAN: Don't view SOHC at a handicap. You can have a grind made with the specs you want for the powerband you want, the only major disadvantage of shich is trading power form other areas...

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