Adjusting my timing - can't get 20 degrees.

[JustinCase]

it's hard torquing things that spin...thanks for the info.

[grahfz]

JustinCase wrote: it's hard torquing things that spin...thanks for the info.

lock it up with something. gotta do the job right.

[JustinCase]

This is fantastic. Put it all back, timed it correctly, replaced one of the two cam gears.

The distributor still does not align correctly, it's always "half a tooth" off or so.

Started the car, timing light drove the distributor all the way to the right to get close to 20 degrees.

It idles like shit, drives like shit. I'm tired of this shit.

There's not much to this engine. I replaced the bad cam gear with a perfect one. Torqued & timed. The distributor does not align correctly.

Sigh.

[Dan-TSS]

I recently experienced a similiar issue, but the resulting damage was due to operator error. I failed to torque the cam gear bolts down when I assembled the timing belt and set things up.
I over looked it for whatever reason(probably was interupted during the process of things).
Anyways, The funny part is this...the exact opposite occured in comparission to your story.
The car idled beautifully, was able to dail in the timing at exactly 10 degrees with the ecu maintaining the idle. Not a single hiccup.
I did notice though, a strange sound from the engine bay when attempting to tune the car. I ingored it, the car was still running good and idled awesomely. The next time I started the car and went out for a datalog run...I accelerated full throttle from 1st thru 3rd gear. Half way 3rd...the engine just died like the battery was unhooked.
Upon tear down, I found the cam gears destoyed(centers broken out of them), the "tit" or index stud on the cams was broken off, but the cam gears were still held in place with the belt on. Any attempts to roll over the engine and the resulting sound was just like rolling over an engine with the plugs out(no compresion).
Well, 2 newly drilled TSS cam gears,12 valves and 6 intake valve guides and another valve job later...I managed to fudge things again. Nothing broken this time, just a lack of proper t-belt alignment. I was in a hurry, didn't line up belt marks or count the teeth to double check. Two times later of pulling everything apart after the fact...I broke down and kicked my own ass because I will never remove another timing belt with-out the intent to set it up as if it where brand new and being very thorough.
(I was off by a tooth here, and then there..because of my lack of attention)
*At the current time, I have small issues with the "tune" itself. It again, is operator error, as I am learning and adjusting with Nistune, of which currently has no supporting documentation of what does what or what is used for calculating what, etc. I'm currently busy pestering others that have had more experience with the software than I to resolve/learn.
*(I'll gladly make those that are involved worth thier while...I know that cell phone or telephones cost money...be prepared to recieve a nice gift or give me your Paypal info when I ask for it!)
~I just thought I'd mention this because after reading this...and having just been here myself....Yeah!...torque the cam gear bolts and use loctite.
Or PAY!...And be thorough with what you're doing in there with that timing belt!
40 teeth between the cam gear marks and 43 teeth between the drivers cam gear mark to the crank gear mark.
8)
Dan

[grahfz]

What I do, is when I get the belt, the alignment lines.. I take whiteout or a silver sharpie, and extend the line onto the side of the belt. That way, as I'm lining things up, I can simply just look at the sides, and tell 100% that it's right. This is especially handy on the crank gear.

DO NOT USE THE BACK COVER MARKS. I totally ignore them nowadays. I use the marks on the belt.

Like I said, I've been in your situation, and until it's 100% correct on the belt, it's not going to be right.

Trust me, it was night and day when I got it right. The distributor won't be up against the lock anymore.. I had actually thought about extending the adjustment slot so that I could get that hair more that it needed.

[JustinCase]

Alright, i'll redo it then.

God this blows.

Thanks for the advice Dan & Grahfz

[Dan-TSS]

Does anyone know if the machining in the camshafts for the distributor drive is the same on every camshaft nissan made for our VG's?

I ask this because I have the exact same "out of adjustment" issues.
I also am 3 degrees advanced on both cams, so I'm sure that plays into it. If the cams were set striaght up like stock, My distributor would adjust normally. I'm able to get the timing set within the adjustment range, just the distributor is at 97% of its adjustment range with being advanced 3 degrees on the cam gears..
This last time the covers were off....I verified everything.
-Crank timing gear hasn't slipped and is still in the keyway.
-Crank pulley lined up with lower timing cover, set to 0
-Crank timing gear aligned to oil pump housing(this isn't what I counted on for being TDC, BTW..I rely on the crank pulley timing marks and the lower timing cover index...crank timing gear can be off this way or that way slightly and is used for general reference/alignment witht he stuff apart.)
-Cam gears...pass. side seems just barely before the index mark on rear cover, drivers side cam gear is just ever so slighty after the index mark.
-Timing belt solid lines on the cam gear marks(new marks indexed for +3degrees) and dotted line on the crank timing gear index.

**I'm beginning to second guess things for some reason.
I torqued the cam gear bolts and used Blue loctite on the clean threads.
I kept the assembly from rotating by using a strap wrench and two hands.
(one on the strap wrench, one on the torque wrench)
When I torque the crank pulley bolt, I'm using the transmission to keep things from wanting to easily move along with a breaker bar on the drivers side cam gear bolt(which if not careful, can possibly back it off a little)

[JustinCase]

If this makes any addition to your concerns Dan, i'm running:

89NA Block/Heads
84T cams
89NA Dist
89NA Crank

And one of each cam gears (replaced with an 84T on the driver side)

Looks like your in somewhat of the same boat i'm in.

This is definatly odd.

[JustinCase]

I replaced the worn cam gear, checked everything.

I have the engine perfectly timed. 40 teeth between the cams, 43 teeth between the crank and the driver-side cam.

The distributor still does not align correctly for 20 degrees.

I have it set about 25-30 degrees at the moment. It'd driving better, but still odd. Not as much power as i suspect it should, etc etc. Accelerating sometimes has a hesitation or bumping, never done that before .

Either this light is broken, or something else is going wrong. 20 degrees still slams it to the edge. Even if the light was broken, the distributor still doesn't line up when the engine is at TDC for #1.

I'm getting tired of troubleshooting this.

[jjewell]

just curious. what kind of timing light do you have?

[homestar]

JustinCase wrote: Even if the light was broken, the distributor still doesn't line up when the engine is at TDC for #1.

.

woah hang on a second. you realize that the distributor shouldn't line up at TDC. You have to remove the cap off of the crank angle sensor and use that as a reference if you're using TDC because the distributor should line up at 20 BTDC, and the CAS should line up at TDC...

I hope you didn't confuse the two.

[JustinCase]

jjewell wrote: just curious. what kind of timing light do you have?
Autozone Actron 40$ timing light:

homestar wrote: woah hang on a second. you realize that the distributor shouldn't line up at TDC. You have to remove the cap off of the crank angle sensor and use that as a reference if you're using TDC because the distributor should line up at 20 BTDC, and the CAS should line up at TDC...

I hope you didn't confuse the two.

I'm lining up acording to the FSM. This is what i'm lining up to:


When i crank the engine, in order to get 20 degrees, i have to drank the distributor one way or the other, but it's always cranked all the way. There is no middle ground.

[homestar]

ok, if you ignore those markings on the distributor, and remove the screws to the CAS; you'll be able to see the TDC markings on the CAS. This will require removing the distributor cap + rotor first. You can then set the engine to TDC and confirm that the distributor is in fact at the TDC setting when you're inserting it.

I've always done it this way as I've found that using those markings makes it very easy for the gear to slip without noticing it.

edit: i'll take some pics and do a writeup on this method for future reference for people.

[jjewell]

try the simplest thing first. borrow a good snap on light from someone. it'll take 2 seconds to find out if your light is any good. i thought my $100.00 crapsman light was good till i went to the dyno.

[Stinky]

I know Autoworkz already suggested it and you said it was fairly new but I can't stress enough that you need to check the chts system. I dont mean just the sensor. I mean everything going to the ecu and possibly even the ecu. Follow the fsm and check the chts values at the ecu pins. Just because the sensor is new doesnt mean the rest of the wiring and the connectors aren't causing problems. What you are describing is exactly what Autoworkz and I encountered. Also, check that tps signal is showing closed at the ecu pins. Both the chts and tps will have a bearing on your idle timing. If you still dont have any luck try to borrow someones ecu incase something is up with yours.