Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Real World Titanium applications for VG engines? Is it woth.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Real World Titanium applications for VG engines? Is it woth.

    it!

    Well I've been using Titanium parts in RC and Guns for some moons now. I never thought it was some magical metal but I ignorantly assumed that it was always worth the investment. I'm very happy with Ti in my custom rifles but in RC it was a failure for my intent.

    I wouldn't presume to know all of the properties of titanium but I've observed many of them. Textbook education says that Ti has more Tensile strength then *Steel* and that it's 40% lighter then *Steel*. IME with hardcore(read money pits built for insane abuse that are tons of fun until your kids friend steals them) Nitro RC 4x4's, Ti can handle some abuse but when it reaches it's breaking point it wont bend like many steels it just snaps(shears really).

    The average RPM's of a Nitro RC engine are insane(40K+ peak RPM) but comparing RC engines or even Diesel engines on the grand scale to a Gasoline 1:1 engine would be ludacris. Alas, I will use RC as a Analogie for the way people spend money in this and many hobbies. I've noticed that ole or young people go fukin crazy and buy everything under the sun that's avaliable for their rc or car and the sellers are often laughing all the way to the bank! Often times they don't consider the long haul and the way materials will or wont play nice together. You'll hear me use the word Arbitrary often but hey, it's a good word for young people in this or any hobby where your buying shite. People often build engines in a very arbitray fashion InMyObservation.

    So,

    IYE or IYO are Titanium Retainers worth the investment? WTF did they actually do for you?

    I don't even know if Titanium Valve springs are avaliable for the SOHC VG but even if they are, what are they going to do to justify my spending of hard earned monies as opposed to JWT springs, stock or cheap Schnieder springs???

    I know Custom Titanium rods are avaliable but I'd imagine them being insanely expensive and I already have the best made steel rods money can buy. Even if I bought Ti rods, what could they possibly do to justify the cost?

    My reality 1/4 goal with a completely built, single turbo VG34E in my slightly gutted and lightened S14 is 10.5 seconds @ Altitude with Tec III mangegment. Most of my parts and going to be cryo treated and I WILL provide this forum with as much data as my schedule and family permits.

    The only reason I'm not running an RB(god I love working on straight 6's) is because I've decided that I don't want to fuk with the more elaborate pipping of TT and I can't imagine the RB getting to even 3.3L without Darton sleeves or something. 100MM bores rock but it's not happening on my VG.

    All 411 is welcome and I'd love to here from somone with realworld experience having used titanium parts on any gasoline engine?

    TIA
    Ucked Fup!!!

  • #2
    no real world experience here just what Ive read.

    the benifits of ti rods obviously is that they are lighter. Ok so what, what does that do for you?

    When your rod is moving back and forth it needs a certain amount of tensil strength due to the huge amounts of force applied to the rod as it is rapidy changing directions from going up then imedietly coming down.( USUALY,the highest stress on a rod is when it is being pulled down from the crank) The heavier your rod is, the more kenetic energy it has while it is moving and the harder it is to get it to change directions. meaning, more force is being applied to move a rod that is heavier at the same rpm as a lighter one. A ti rod you can make the same size but it has more strength and is ALSO lighter. this yields in a higher rev limit. Who needs the high revs? small displacement whos power bands are high or high reving engines(8.5k rpms + or so) On a VG engine who's power band starts to fall off after about 6k you obviously wouldnt need a rod to handle high rpms. Unless you plan on building your engine to rev up to 9k + and breath correctly while doing so.

    Using ti retainers reduces weight in the valve train and the same principle sorta applies. the less weight you have on the valve meaning, the valve, the spring, the lifter and the retainer(hell lets say the keepers too) the less likley you are to have valve float at higher rpms due to less kinetic energy.

    Hope this gives you an idea of how it works in my head :? Hell this may not even be the answer you are looking for though.
    85 Z31 6.0 LSX turbo 766whp/792wtq
    04 GTO, LS6, big cam, porting, N20... underway for summertime daily driver.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Real World Titanium applications for VG engines? Is it w

      My opinion?

      You're thinking WAY to much.


      nice set of pistons/rings/rods, get the heads worked over WELL, port everything out to match, strap a good engine management solution to it, and a very good turbo.

      Spend your money there, then figure out driveline, because either
      A. You won't be able to hook it,
      or B. You'll be breaking things.

      Spend all the money you can on getting the turbo tricked out, it's where most of the power(fun) is on these motors. and the HEADS is where the power is really made at. It's literally a night and day difference. That's why AFR gets their money.

      If you're going for top-end power, look to go rather large with the cams too.
      vg33et -blew some chunks outta it, then gave it all away.
      2009 370z touring/nav/sports

      Comment


      • #4
        Also, it is said that ti rods or aluminum rod do not make for good street cars. I find this hard to belive with the ti rods however considering the NSX uses ti rods from the factory. They say aluminum rods stretch after x00 passes. this is the general idea of alum rods. Funny tho cause the guy at GRP says that alum rods dont stretch they actually shrink. I dont understand why he is saying somthing that most of the rest of the world contadicts. BUT that is why I am a lowly glazier and not a mechanical engineer. :roll:
        85 Z31 6.0 LSX turbo 766whp/792wtq
        04 GTO, LS6, big cam, porting, N20... underway for summertime daily driver.

        Comment


        • #5
          From what i remember Titanium is actually heavier than steel.

          The strenght at which your titanium is equivelent to your steel is what makes it lighter, you need that much less for the same strenght

          I partook in some insane R/C car chassis work that is totally one of a kind.

          One was a full tube chassis, ALL Ti

          the other was stander flat chassis w/ 90 degree girdles going down it.

          I love the stuff

          Terrible idea putting those wheels on...

          Comment


          • #6
            MrwassmanNA2T wrote: From what i remember Titanium is actually heavier than steel.

            The strenght at which your titanium is equivelent to your steel is what makes it lighter, you need that much less for the same strenght
            HUH????? can you explain that again? You must be sleepy, :wink: I think titanium is lighter than steel just because its, um, well... lighter than steel. and stronger as well.


            If you had a steel rod that was the exact same size and shape as a ti rod, the ti rod would be lighter and stronger.
            85 Z31 6.0 LSX turbo 766whp/792wtq
            04 GTO, LS6, big cam, porting, N20... underway for summertime daily driver.

            Comment


            • #7
              That is just what i have heard, upon research it isn't true. My bad

              One of titanium's most notable characteristics is that it is as strong as steel but is only 60% its density

              6AL-4V Titanium is what we used

              ~6% Aluminum @ 26.981 atomic mass
              ~4.5% vanadium @ 50.941 am
              ~89.5% titanium @ 47.687 am

              Steel

              98.3% iron @ 55.845 am
              1.7% carbon @ 12.0107 am

              Wikipedia says it is most commonly mixed with iron and aluminuim.

              Terrible idea putting those wheels on...

              Comment


              • #8
                Google is your friend...

                Ti - The Principal Properties.
                45% lighter than steel

                http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-titanium.htm
                http://youtube.com/c/zcartube

                Comment


                • #9
                  The Ti rods would be pretty much bulletproof, but they are totally unnecessary unless you're making over 1000hp, want the quickest engine responce possible, and want to rev the crap out of your engine

                  I would look into Ti retainers possibly if you're running a very big cam and plan to take your VG over 7000 RPM, but the Ti valvesprings aren't really necessary either unless, again, you want that lightning responce and rev the crap out of your engine.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Andrevas wrote: The Ti rods would be pretty much bulletproof, but they are totally unnecessary unless you're making over 1000hp, want the quickest engine responce possible, and want to rev the crap out of your engine

                    I would look into Ti retainers possibly if you're running a very big cam and plan to take your VG over 7000 RPM, but the Ti valvesprings aren't really necessary either unless, again, you want that lightning responce and rev the crap out of your engine.
                    I seem to remember the GTP running pretty much run-of-the-mill crower rods..

                    Crower is one of the best names in the business though... if you've got the cash.
                    vg33et -blew some chunks outta it, then gave it all away.
                    2009 370z touring/nav/sports

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      If you have the money go for it, Myself. I can get them done for myself at a good price. So I will do Ti rods and parts when I build the motor.
                      Gone - 1988 Shiro
                      2004 BMW 330Ci
                      2005 BMW 330i
                      1991 Twin Turbo Z's (Red and Black)
                      http://www.E46Turbo330Ci.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        NIVO wrote: If you have the money go for it, Myself. I can get them done for myself at a good price. So I will do Ti rods and parts when I build the motor.
                        kthxdie

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          SATAN wrote: Also, it is said that ti rods or aluminum rod do not make for good street cars. I find this hard to belive with the ti rods however considering the NSX uses ti rods from the factory.
                          The reason titanium in not a good material to use in street cars is because titanium has a tendancy to be a very clingy/grabby metal. It likes to attract itself to everything else around it.

                          Aluminum rods stretch. They may appear on the outside to have shrunk but its on the atomic level that stretch occurs. The blown Alcohol car that a friend runs is good for 10 runs before all the rods and bearings get replaced. Top fuel gets 1 run before replacing AL. rods.
                          ""You gota watch out in this weather. Its when them white boys with their turbos come out to play" Mr. Rimpson - UTI Instructor, refering to a slightly damp 50 degree day.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            the huge hp dragsters may have enough bang to squish aluminum rods, but the failure point will still be the stretching wrist and caps

                            if you think about the motion of the rods on the crank, the more stroked the crank the more maximum velocity the rod achieves, the rod is under the most stress when it is being flung upwards on the exhaust stroke...

                            the explanation is simple:

                            on the compression stroke (before the bang) the piston is pressed against the rod and crank, the higher up it gets the more compressive force it gets and the less flinging force

                            on the exhaust stroke, there is nothing but the rotation of the crank to help the piston change direction, and like an unbuckled occupant in a crash, they want to keep flying, when they are ultimately stopped and direction changes, that is when the rods weakest points, the wrists and caps, are subjected to the most destructive expansion stress

                            ....

                            compressing metal makes it stronger, expanding metal makes it weaker.... in a funny car both happen to different areas of the rod, the bearings may fail if the rod deforms too much, but it's the rod's ends failing that will make piston popcorn

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              [quote]Andrevas wrote:
                              Originally posted by NIVO
                              If you have the money go for it, Myself. I can get them done for myself at a good price. So I will do Ti rods and parts when I build the motor.kthxdie
                              :roll: :lol:

                              Need some titanium parts? LOL
                              Gone - 1988 Shiro
                              2004 BMW 330Ci
                              2005 BMW 330i
                              1991 Twin Turbo Z's (Red and Black)
                              http://www.E46Turbo330Ci.com

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X