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  • out of curiousity

    This is a question for the few N/A buildup guys on this board:

    How much power did you end up with, and what did you do to get there?

    What are the tricks of the trade to build a good N/A engine?
    Funny stories!

  • #2
    I haven't dynod it. But *edit ima tard

    Terrible idea putting those wheels on...

    Comment


    • #3
      wow that's a lot of torque... :-P


      care to share how you got that much power out of it? what modifications and so on...
      Funny stories!

      Comment


      • #4
        1- I thought you already did the turbo conversion?
        2- you can buy a 300hp long block for $11k. If you want to buy it then I will post the link. :shock:

        There is a local guy that builds NASCAR engine components for several teams that has built a 500hp NA VG31. I don't even want to know what that would cost. He has pictures in his home of a Chevelle SS with a VG NA that ran high 8s so I was told by a guy who worked for him. That Chevelle is an interesting story on its own. Ive chatted with him a couple times in person but in his world my Z is small potatoes at this point.

        Anyhow...as it has been said before, anything is possible with enough money, time and skill.

        Other than that, its pretty much the same stuff the turbo guys do after the turbo upgrades. Differences: Long arm exhaust headers are good on an NA, big exhaust is bad on an NA. Pretty much everything else between NA and turbo still apply. Some things will make less or more difference depending on the overall setup.

        The basics apply, cool air and lots of it is good, efficient air/fuel management is very good, efficient exhaust is good (although "efficient on an NA is different than a turbo) Traction is good, handling is good, and drivable is good.

        There are a few of us that are hell bent on building the NA for all we can get. It isn't cheap, but the good news is that nearly everything we do to the NA engine will be very usable if we ever decide to add a turbo. :shock:

        Yep, go figure...NA power modifications can actually translate to a turbo conversion if you decide to take that road that is less traveled. I know...its not easily accepted...take a minute to absorb how off the wall that concept really is...take a deep breath...one more deep breath...ok, now you will all be ok. I hope. :shock:
        Just stand back and throw money.
        Performance costs money.
        Reliable performance costs more.

        Comment


        • #5
          OR-Zman wrote: 1- I thought you already did the turbo conversion?That is why this thread is entitled "out of curiousity"
          OR-Zman wrote:
          2- you can buy a 300hp long block for $11k. If you want to buy it then I will post the link. :shock: :
          I've seen it, it is pretty cool.

          I guess i was looking for what do you do to build up an N/A motor that is different than a turbo motor.
          Funny stories!

          Comment


          • #6
            homestar wrote: wow that's a lot of torque... :-P


            care to share how you got that much power out of it? what modifications and so on...
            I AM A R_TARD

            Terrible idea putting those wheels on...

            Comment


            • #7
              Spencer, why the fuck are you posting numbers? your car is turbo fool!

              Comment


              • #8
                homestar wrote: I guess i was looking for what do you do to build up an N/A motor that is different than a turbo motor.
                There really isn't a heck of a lot of difference. But, considering that air flow on an NA is at a premium compared to a turbo, then all the little things in the air flow world make a bigger difference.

                A couple examples:

                since no one in their right mind adds an inter-cooler to an NA then a real cold air intake really takes on a whole new dimension. There are a lot of ideas out there. Ive tried most of them unfortunately and came up with my own. (www below should show the basics, PM me if you want an actual writeup)

                tuning is basically the same idea without the boost considerations. Nuff said

                Intake -stock sucks, custom will flow better. Again, WWW below shows an actual NA install. A real cold air, efficient piping, upper plenum, lower plenum. It is all in play. In some ways the intake is even more important on an NA than on a turbo. Flow efficiency is an absolute premium. We don't have the benefit of forced air to overcome the little inadequacies or extra bends or whatever.

                Internals- most of the same basic things that would make a monster turbo engine will apply to a monster NA engine. There are some distinct differences but that is better left to the published books you can get at the local book store. NA and turbo internal needs/requirements are really not all that different but there are some differences that you have to be aware of.

                Exhaust- fortunately there are a couple very affordable (compared to custom turbo manifolds) that are easily obtained. Long arm headers on an NA are a good thing. (look it up) I personally have the Pacesetter headers and they fit like a glove. No one in their right mind would say that stock headers are good for NA or turbo flow. Even on a turbo car the stock headers suck overall. The limitation for most guys is $, space and/or the ability to fabricate a better unit on their own.

                Essentially it comes down to the same things. Air flow, head work, lower end work, and lots of $ to get it done, time and a burning desire to do this. Well, that pretty much sums up why virtually no one has really built a "real" NA. :shock: I think it was Butter or Foo Foo who built a damn nice NA but it fell into other hands. It was for sale a few months ago. I don't remember all the details but it was probably the best NA built to date. (sorry foo foo but the clown car just doesn't count although it was a great project)

                The good news is that there are a few of us that are on a quest to build the NA for all we can get out of it. (short of the $11k long block idea)

                btw- HP on an NA is meaningless unless you have a decent suspension to handle it and compliment the added hp IMO.

                No matter how you slice it, NA or turbo. Getting it done right isn't cheap. :wink: HP costs money no matter how you slice it.

                show them my motto...
                Just stand back and throw money.
                Performance costs money.
                Reliable performance costs more.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I am building a nice n/a motor for a customer. I too am curious how much hp it will make. It is low compression for a future turbo, but I think it will make more hp than most other vg na motors.
                  Chuck Stong
                  300+ Parts and Performance owner
                  http://www.300-plus.com
                  2002 ZCOT president and always active member

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hey,

                    Even if you had Jay Lenos money to throw around, you'd have to be a fool IMVHO to spend 11K on a N/A vg. I love the VG but their's far superior N/A engines that can be had for that kinda coin. Hell, you can pic up a stock Vq with 287 HP out of a G35/350Z for around 2grand on feebay and then talk the AEbs people down to around $5500.00 for their 4.3L monster VQ stroker kit. If you do some of the work yourself you could have a 400+Hp N/A VQ monster. I mean no disrespect to the honerable OR-Zman but 11g's for an N/A VG is lunacy IMVHO.

                    Anyway, we're building a monster N/A VG34E for my friends Solid Axle swaped Hardboy. With perfect tuning and advanced timing from Jasons Plenum spacer and the Russ Cam gears I'm thinking 275crank HP max...(260 is more realistic)..

                    Here's the list of goodies...It's still not gonna be a cheap build..

                    Starting out with a VG33E from a wrecked X...The final VG34E WILL have as much power as a VG33R(Superchargaed factory VG) with a slightly better peak powerband and MUCH better gas mileage. THe supercharged factory VG's get pathetic gas mileage. I'll submit dyno numers to jason when we're done(three months).

                    Clean up the entire block...

                    Heads Ported&Polished by L&P Performance(en route).
                    Jwt Valve Springs...(he already bought em)
                    Nissan MotorSports # 2 Offroad cams

                    Doug Thorley Headers.
                    MagnaFlo Hi flo cat...
                    Borla cat-back Ehaust (all the exhaust parts came from me from my Pathy as I'm turbocharging my pathfinder and doing a custom 3" stainless exhaust).

                    Greddy Ultimate Emanage. If this thing doesn't take care of buisness, then we'll have to shell out the bucks to JWT for a tuned ECU or go another route.

                    VH45DE Throttle body and MAF(not really necessary but we'll c).

                    Russ Cam gears(maybe). Might just go the cheap route with the morgans for a one time adjustment.

                    Pistons are VH45DE and will give the bored out engine 3.4L's and a 10-1 compression ratio. Rods will be VG30DETT and the crank will be knife edged, polished and cryo treated. Everything will be balanced(the TT rods are beefy).

                    Total Seal rings...

                    His *Air Intake* will be an ARB Snorkel(it's a 4x4 beast again). Their is no colder air charge then a snorkel. With the snorkel and Jasons plenum spacer I think he'll be able to realize some serious timing advance...we'll c.

                    That's all I can think of and the vast majority. It's still not a cheap build to say the least but he'll have an engine that f'in rocks offroad and has enough power on road to put him back in his seat. The gas mileage should be great compared to the pathetic 250K stock VG30E we pulled out.

                    Peace
                    Ucked Fup!!!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Note that russ gained over 10whp from just adjusting fueling on an NA... this is more than the JWT "tune" makes for N/A.

                      I have half a mind to open my wastegate entirely and see how much power my engine makes with (almost) no boost. I would bet it's easily over 200whp, and it's 8.5:1 comp pulling through and intercooler and pushing through a more restrictive exhaust before the downpipe.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Jason84NA2T wrote: Note that russ gained over 10whp from just adjusting fueling on an NA... this is more than the JWT "tune" makes for N/A.

                        I have half a mind to open my wastegate entirely and see how much power my engine makes with (almost) no boost. I would bet it's easily over 200whp, and it's 8.5:1 comp pulling through and intercooler and pushing through a more restrictive exhaust before the downpipe.
                        You could be making that as you have a manual but I dunno with your low compression ratio. My pathfinder is an auto 4x4(as is my friends harbody). So we're talking 21% powerloss from 4x4+ 21% from the auto tranny. Just do it Jason.hehe.

                        Can you elaborate on exactly what Russ did for 10HP Jason?

                        I'm not impressed with JWT's ecu for the money. All they're doing is a basic tune for $500(gimmie a break). When your spinning 32" or larger mud tires, you need all the power you can get.

                        I'll be running the Russ gears and your plenum spacer on my pathfinder soon. I'll also be running a Snorkel so I'm looking @ a serously cool intake charge. It'll go on the dyno asap.

                        Maybe you can get me a discount on the gears Jason...hehe. If I show power desperate Nissan VG powered truck guys a 10HP gain they'll be lining up for the gears soon enough. That's a better gain then a Borla cat-back exhaust. One could probably get the same gains with cheap Morgans but we know they can't be adjusted without removing the belt(pain in the ass).
                        Ucked Fup!!!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Jason84NA2T wrote: Note that russ gained over 10whp from just adjusting fueling on an NA... this is more than the JWT "tune" makes for N/A.

                          I have half a mind to open my wastegate entirely and see how much power my engine makes with (almost) no boost. I would bet it's easily over 200whp, and it's 8.5:1 comp pulling through and intercooler and pushing through a more restrictive exhaust before the downpipe.
                          Is your waste gate even large enough to flow enough exhaust at full load full rpm to not build any boost at all? I mean, even if you pulled the waste gate OFF. Would the "leak" be large enough to keep it at 0 psi?
                          85 Z31 6.0 LSX turbo 766whp/792wtq
                          04 GTO, LS6, big cam, porting, N20... underway for summertime daily driver.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            homestar wrote: This is a question for the few N/A buildup guys on this board:

                            What are the tricks of the trade to build a good N/A engine?
                            It all about airflow. When I flowed the VG30 heads a number of years ago, the numbers I got where not so good. According to the formula for airflow to HP (I don't recall the author of the formula, but Superflow uses it ) the most HP you can make with a stock VG head is around 215 if memory serves me. This is a benchmark, not to bet the farm on the formula. Without forced induction, all you've got is about 2000ft of atmosphere at 14.7 psi to fill the cylinders. So you need to improve on the route to cylinders. That and increase the cylinder pressure with high compression. Then you can start hanging on all the bolt on mods.

                            Jason has some pics of some seriously ported heads of mine. I think he is going to post them on his website sometime in the future. They will give you an idea of where you need to go for good NA power.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think Butter's brother had a built maroon na 85 that was for sale a few months back.

                              Somebody send him an email and see if he has any info.

                              I wrap my paper weights in glitter.

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