Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

15 psi with water/meth?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • 15 psi with water/meth?

    I'm not too knowledgeable about the water/meth injection kits but I'm really interested in them because of the initial/refill prices.

    Things you need to know--

    Newly rebuilt engine with stock parts
    9:1 comp turbo swap with stock turbo
    Intercooled


    I usually drive it around on 8 psi or so just to save gas, I know it can go higher, I've had it to 10-11 before the intercooler but it's just now out of breakin range and I've been taking it easy. It usually has 91 in it because 93 is only sold at a couple places locally, and it seems most of those few locations aren't carrying it anymore since gas prices started going up, so I'm probably stuck on 91... but I've always used that with 93 sparringly.


    What I want to know is... using a water/meth kit would I be able to drive around boosting 15psi on 91 in mild weather? If so, which kit/pieces would I need? Also, would the stock fuel system be able to handle this or would I need to add a pump and maybe a regulator? I know it's possible on stock compression, unsure with 9:1's though.
    1985 NA2T * 1988 SS * 1984 AE x2 * 2006 350Z -- irc.dal.net #300ZX
    21C2E59531C8710156D34A3C30AC81D5 || ...-- ----- ----- --.. -..-

  • #2
    I had my 9:1 33 pumping 15 out of the t3.. intercooled on loads of 93oct though...
    vg33et -blew some chunks outta it, then gave it all away.
    2009 370z touring/nav/sports

    Comment


    • #3
      What size stock turbo do you have? T25 or T3?

      First, I'd suggest that you put in a Walbro fuel pump and then bump up the fuel pressure (crush the FPR) to around 48psi at idle (you will have to lower your idle controls). That way you have "band-aid'd" enough fuel to run 15psi.

      With an intercooler, the use of methanol/water injection is not as substantial as without an intercooler because the charged air is already cooled down from the intercooler. You can still use methanol/water injection, but your range of nozzle sizes will be smaller than those not using an intercooler.

      To answer your question, yes, you will benefit greatly with the use of methanol/water injection on your turbocharged NA block. It will definately suppress any detonation. As far as kits, you can look around for the best one for your application, or you could build one. I have part numbers and pictures of the methanol/water injection kit that I built for my Z.
      [strike:ff0tp92h]1984 300ZXT[/strike:ff0tp92h]
      [strike:ff0tp92h]1986 300ZX 2x2 NA2T[/strike:ff0tp92h]
      2000 Porsche Boxster
      2007 Toyota Yaris

      Comment


      • #4
        T3, sorry.

        Thanks for the good reply raidon. I'd rather build my own kit but I'll probably end up buying a prebuilt one, I'd probably end up forgetting to buy something or not being able to get it to work without instructions, haha. I would like to see the list that you made though. My email is mailto:OK85ZX@gmail.com if you want to send it that way (if you're interested in sending it at all, doh). I've looked at a few kits and havent found any that don't come with a resevoir. I'd like to use the stock wiper fluid tank, are there any kits that come with everything else? Also... what company uses the best parts? I've heard one or two of them go skimpy on the quality of parts but I guess that could just rumor.

        Also... I see there are different jet sizes and even dual jet setups, what would be appropriate for what I'm wanting right now?

        Thanks in advance for the replies.
        1985 NA2T * 1988 SS * 1984 AE x2 * 2006 350Z -- irc.dal.net #300ZX
        21C2E59531C8710156D34A3C30AC81D5 || ...-- ----- ----- --.. -..-

        Comment


        • #5
          Please post this information, as I would like to see how much I could build my own for instead of buying one for $200+

          Or better yet, write a faq for Z31 Performance, it will probably get stickied and eventually moved into the future FAQ section. Then you will go down in history as being "the water/meth injection guy"... ohhh, that sounds like a good rank title for you...

          Comment


          • #6
            OK85ZX wrote: I would like to see the list that you made though.

            I'd like to use the stock wiper fluid tank, are there any kits that come with everything else? Also... what company uses the best parts?

            Also... I see there are different jet sizes and even dual jet setups, what would be appropriate for what I'm wanting right now?
            A list of the needed materials to make your own are here ... http://www.zrelated.com/alcohol.htm ... I'd also suggest using a solenoid to open and close the high pressure side of liquid as soon as the pump shuts ON/OFF. You can just wire it in SERIES with the pump. This will stop any liquid from squirting in the pipes until it is needed.

            You should always be able to use your own washer fluid tank. You can even use the level gauge in the tank to let you know when your running low. Just drill a hole in the bottom of the tank, install a threaded brass hose barbed fitting, secure it with a nut on the inside of the tank, seal with epoxy, and connect the hose that leads to the pump. Installing another reservior will just take up more space in the engine bay.

            McMaster sells all the parts that you would need to make this happen (pump, nozzles, brass hose and pipe fittings, hose) I don't know which kit seller uses the best parts, because I've always made my own system and found out what works best through trial and error.

            I'd suggest that you stick with an M2 or M3 size nozzle available through McMaster.com. Anything bigger would be overkill for your application.
            [strike:ff0tp92h]1984 300ZXT[/strike:ff0tp92h]
            [strike:ff0tp92h]1986 300ZX 2x2 NA2T[/strike:ff0tp92h]
            2000 Porsche Boxster
            2007 Toyota Yaris

            Comment


            • #7
              Jason84NA2T wrote: Please post this information, as I would like to see how much I could build my own for instead of buying one for $200+

              Or better yet, write a faq for Z31 Performance, it will probably get stickied and eventually moved into the future FAQ section. Then you will go down in history as being "the water/meth injection guy"... ohhh, that sounds like a good rank title for you...
              The total of a "Do It Yourself" kit would be around $200. This includes the solenoid not mentioned on my website. $150 without the solenoid and ~$100 if you don't use fancy hoses like I have.

              Yeah, it only seems like a year ago the Z31 community as a whole was trying to excommunicate me from the sociey when I "thought out of the box" and installed a methanol/water injection system on my stock Z instead of using an intercooler. For some reason they thought it was blasphemous to do such an "untested" thing and then claim that it "really" works. Huh, I guess after the dust settled, it became more apparent that this new idea wasn't going to go away just as quickly as it came. With that said, I guess I wouldn't mind making a FAQ on methanol/water injection. It will take some time to put it together so that the average shade-tree mechanic can understand it with ease.

              I also wouldn't mind making a FAQ on how to build your own Z31 VLSD with halfshafts, but I'd rather keep that to myself for now.
              [strike:ff0tp92h]1984 300ZXT[/strike:ff0tp92h]
              [strike:ff0tp92h]1986 300ZX 2x2 NA2T[/strike:ff0tp92h]
              2000 Porsche Boxster
              2007 Toyota Yaris

              Comment


              • #8
                `

                Comment


                • #9
                  Well, no, not a new idea for internal combustion engines, since, yes, it was first introduced in World War II airplanes and is still in use today. It has been used by Vovlo in some of their mass production vehicles as well. Infact, the computer has a input from the level guage in the reservoir that, once the level is low, the computer will retard the timing until the level has been returned to normal. Kinda cool. But it makes me wonder how many owners had no idea what that filling cap was and so drove their Volvo around with less power than available ... but it had seemed that this age old idea hadn't appeared into the Z31 community until only recently.
                  [strike:ff0tp92h]1984 300ZXT[/strike:ff0tp92h]
                  [strike:ff0tp92h]1986 300ZX 2x2 NA2T[/strike:ff0tp92h]
                  2000 Porsche Boxster
                  2007 Toyota Yaris

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    raidon84300zx wrote: but it had seemed that this age old idea hadn't appeared into the Z31 community until only recently.
                    Well, it's just simple skepticism. I myself won't believe most things until I try them. I watched an STi tack on another 4MPH to his trap speed by only using meth injection and running more timing, so it seems impressive even on intercooled cars.

                    This skepticism is not unfounded though, and not as simple as chemical intercooling is not the "popular" way to do it. People have often told me that running a richer mixture will let you run more boost and timing because the charge will be cooled by the additional fuel atomizing. While this makes sense at first, the charge also becomes more dense and hence the flame front moves through it slower. This ends in the same result as having run less timing and a leaner mixture to begin with. Sure, run it rich to be safe on AFR's, but not as a means to cool the air charge by any measurable amount.

                    The same idea applies in my mind to methanol/water. Despite being higher in octane and having a higher latent heat, the meth/water combo will accomplish the same reduction in flame front speed, causing the peak pressure in the cylinder to occur further from TDC resulting in a decrease in torque. In addition you are also injecting more fuel, resulting in a richer mixture as well and further reducing power. Now in my mind the actual difference comes when you increase the boost or advance timing to compensate for those losses. Without tuning to accompany the water injection (or a setup that would be ideally suited to it as it sits), it's not going to be beneficial. And that, I think, is where many people are tied up with the idea of using it on their own cars.

                    Then I look at all the ignorant negativity from some towards people who run nitrous or propane and think to myself... how is this really any different aside for being way cheaper? They're both consumables that accomplish an increase in power and are safe to use with appropriate tuning.

                    Comment

                    Working...
                    X