the ellis autoworkz intercooler answer

[OR-Zman]

I could see heat soak as an issue depending on the material used and routing. But given my experience on my intake piping running only warm to the touch with the engine at normal op temps I have to wonder about the heat soak idea on intake piping overall. Obviously less heat is better but...

With an inter-cooler I would think that the relative temps would be the biggest concern. Here is my thinking on this one:

I have seen FEW turbo setups with an induction setup (filter) that isn't sucking in hot air. I still don't understand that. :?

Add an inter-cooler with the routing and SS pipes with urethane bends that works for you. (Welding them is cheaper and may look better if done well but it is more time consuming and it doesn't help the heat issue. :shock: )Worry more about intake temp than heat soak on the piping.

Turbo or NA- cold intake air ( or coldest possible intake air ) is the key to controlling the temp of the air that reaches the TB. Now we all know that there are other things that can be done to help reduce heat after the TB. Eliminate the "coolant" lines to the TB and plenum and....NEWS FLASH....Jason has a phenolic spacer that will make HUGE differences in the heat soak of the plenum.

Hmmm...now the question becomes what is more detrimental- heat from the radiator or the engine block radiating up through the upper plenum? :shock:

Now imagine that you are sucking in cool air with no "coolant" heating things up and you have an upper plenum that is cool to the touch at normal operating temps....Sounds good to me. But hey... it could all be just theory. 8)

[Firehawk]

[quote]SATAN wrote:

I feel the same way about the heatsoak. As fast as the air moves through the pipes which have a low surface area I don't think it's going to make any noticeable difference.

The main reason we are doing the pipes the way we are is because some people just dont want to put holes in their frame. The only thing that gets cut in the entire install process is the actual pumper support which is easily replaced.
Thats like saying that jasons phenolic spacer wont work because the air moves through the plenum too fast.

I have to disagree, the heat transfer between two pieces of metal touching each other is FAR greater than two separated and transferring through air. If you are really concerned about heat transfer through the intercooler piping, just use a thermal coating.

[SATAN]

[quote]Firehawk wrote: [quote=SATAN]

I feel the same way about the heatsoak. As fast as the air moves through the pipes which have a low surface area I don't think it's going to make any noticeable difference.

The main reason we are doing the pipes the way we are is because some people just dont want to put holes in their frame. The only thing that gets cut in the entire install process is the actual pumper support which is easily replaced.
Thats like saying that jasons phenolic spacer wont work because the air moves through the plenum too fast.
I have to disagree, the heat transfer between two pieces of metal touching each other is FAR greater than two separated and transferring through air. If you are really concerned about heat transfer through the intercooler piping, just use a thermal coating.

Who the hell is gonna be able to fit an intercooler pipe over the radiator without touching it!? Yeah maybe if you run a 1/2" IC pipe LOL! This is all I'm talking about. If I were worried about the heat transfer through air I would be wrapping my IC pipe as they run through my engine bay. That part doesnt bother me. Its the pipe resting on the top of the radiator which is pretty much unavoidable.

[SATAN]

OR-Zman wrote: I could see heat soak as an issue depending on the material used and routing. But given my experience on my intake piping running only warm to the touch with the engine at normal op temps I have to wonder about the heat soak idea on intake piping overall. Obviously less heat is better but...

With an inter-cooler I would think that the relative temps would be the biggest concern. Here is my thinking on this one:

I have seen FEW turbo setups with an induction setup (filter) that isn't sucking in hot air. I still don't understand that. :?

Add an inter-cooler with the routing and SS pipes with urethane bends that works for you. (Welding them is cheaper and may look better if done well but it is more time consuming and it doesn't help the heat issue. :shock: )Worry more about intake temp than heat soak on the piping.

Turbo or NA- cold intake air ( or coldest possible intake air ) is the key to controlling the temp of the air that reaches the TB. Now we all know that there are other things that can be done to help reduce heat after the TB. Eliminate the "coolant" lines to the TB and plenum and....NEWS FLASH....Jason has a phenolic spacer that will make HUGE differences in the heat soak of the plenum.

Hmmm...now the question becomes what is more detrimental- heat from the radiator or the engine block radiating up through the upper plenum? :shock:

Now imagine that you are sucking in cool air with no "coolant" heating things up and you have an upper plenum that is cool to the touch at normal operating temps....Sounds good to me. But hey... it could all be just theory. 8)

"I have seen FEW turbo setups with an induction setup (filter) that isn't sucking in hot air. I still don't understand that. :? "

Did you mean to say that word for word? Why would you want any air filter sucking hot air?

The bottom line is this, for every 10 degrees you drop your intake temp you get denser air that is equivelent to a 1hp increase. SO YES ANYTHING YOU CAN DO TO PREVENT HEAT is a good thing as far as performance goes.

[Merovingian]

There is an FD rx-7 kit that has the outlet pipe from the IC resting on the radiator. That pipe gets extreemly hot just from the car running. I would think it would make enough of a difference to where one would try to avoid it.

[Stinky]

Who the hell is gonna be able to fit an intercooler pipe over the radiator without touching it!? Yeah maybe if you run a 1/2" IC pipe LOL!

Did I read that wrong or are you kidding? We managed to get 2.5" pipes past the radiator without making any physical contact with the radiator.

[SATAN]

Stinky wrote:

Who the hell is gonna be able to fit an intercooler pipe over the radiator without touching it!? Yeah maybe if you run a 1/2" IC pipe LOL!

Did I read that wrong or are you kidding? We managed to get 2.5" pipes past the radiator without making any physical contact with the radiator.

Really? wow. I guess it just seems like there is a lot less room than there really is. Meh still. going around is still better for custom applications. going over the radiator is fantastic if you want to maintain the stock components and not cut holes in you priceless z31 lol.

[Z31SPL]

Yea i dont see what is the big deal with cutting a small circle in your FENDERWELL, its not even part of the FRAME.

[G-E]

just so you know, the only reason coolant (hot) is routed into the plenum is to prevent icing of the throttle body and cold idle in subzero temps....

for most people in the south or japan or australalaia it doesn't matter, but it can happen anytime theres humidity and -7C

some cars have plastic plenums, which are notorious for leaks, many of them carry coolant to the same locations as ours instead of using hoses... in a sense we're lucky

[84z31]

i had mine unhooked in -30* weather last winter. it never froze over or became stiff. i wouldn't worry about it. i'm sure the intake gets plenty warm from just the motor and the coolant flowing throught the lower intake.

unless jason's plenuim spacer can keep it that much cooler i don't think you'll ever have a problem with freezing.

G-E wrote: just so you know, the only reason coolant (hot) is routed into the plenum is to prevent icing of the throttle body and cold idle in subzero temps....

for most people in the south or japan or australalaia it doesn't matter, but it can happen anytime theres humidity and -7C

some cars have plastic plenums, which are notorious for leaks, many of them carry coolant to the same locations as ours instead of using hoses... in a sense we're lucky

[SATAN]

G-E wrote: just so you know, the only reason coolant (hot) is routed into the plenum is to prevent icing of the throttle body and cold idle in subzero temps....

for most people in the south or japan or australalaia it doesn't matter, but it can happen anytime theres humidity and -7C

some cars have plastic plenums, which are notorious for leaks, many of them carry coolant to the same locations as ours instead of using hoses... in a sense we're lucky

Actually coolant is NOT routed through the plenum. Its the lower intake manifold which it is routed to and the thottle body. And it is NOT routed there to prevent ICING.

Coolant is routed to these places to keep the air warm so that the fuel will stay atomized so more of it is burned in the combustion chamber. Keeping things warm in the freezing weather keeps fuel from pooling up in places. It doesnt matter if you throttle body ices up(as long as it still moves) just so long as the air is warm enough to keep fuel atomized.

[G-E]

SATAN wrote: Actually coolant is NOT routed through the plenum. Its the lower intake manifold which it is routed to and the thottle body. And it is NOT routed there to prevent ICING.

Coolant is routed to these places to keep the air warm so that the fuel will stay atomized so more of it is burned in the combustion chamber. Keeping things warm in the freezing weather keeps fuel from pooling up in places. It doesnt matter if you throttle body ices up(as long as it still moves) just so long as the air is warm enough to keep fuel atomized.

wrong on both counts.... guess you have lived without a stock plenum too long, it's ok, don't cry

and yes to the previous posts, once a engine is warmed up the chances of the plenum getting so cold is next to impossible, the throttle on the other hand could ice up if you are cruising along for extended periods at say -10 when it's freezing rain, there could be just enough buildup to prevent the throttle closing .... car makers don't like safety risks, too many lawsuits taught them that

[SATAN]

[quote]G-E wrote:

Actually coolant is NOT routed through the plenum. Its the lower intake manifold which it is routed to and the thottle body. And it is NOT routed there to prevent ICING.

Coolant is routed to these places to keep the air warm so that the fuel will stay atomized so more of it is burned in the combustion chamber. Keeping things warm in the freezing weather keeps fuel from pooling up in places. It doesnt matter if you throttle body ices up(as long as it still moves

) just so long as the air is warm enough to keep fuel atomized.
wrong on both counts.... guess you have lived without a stock plenum too long, it's ok, don't cry

and yes to the previous posts, once a engine is warmed up the chances of the plenum getting so cold is next to impossible, the throttle on the other hand could ice up if you are cruising along for extended periods at say -10 when it's freezing rain, there could be just enough buildup to prevent the throttle closing .... car makers don't like safety risks, too many lawsuits taught them that

The only water passage that goes through the plenum is a whopping 3/8 line which goes through the very outer part of the plenum which wont do shit to heat the entire plenum. I could see your point about the throttle body but the plenum is NOT heated.

I really dont belive its even remotley Possible to have it raining at -10 and I dont think that If the the car had allready been cruizing that the throttle body could come even close to freezing on a warm engine. Which warms up in like what under 2 minutes?

you must be talking about humidity in the air? who knows what you are talking about. Or what you think you are talking about for that matter. raining at -10 :roll: :lol:


Now the lower intake has a complete water chamber that flows through the entire thing. That can probably hold about a quart of water. That is there to keep intake temps warm to atomize fuel. And if you think that is wrong then you are sadly mistaken.

EDIT: also note what I put in bold letters for you since you obviously didnt read my post before you so rudley told me I was incorrect.

[Merovingian]

Yeah, I think I would have to agree with SATAN.

In every book I have ever read they say that the intake manifold is coolant heated to keep it warm to retain fuel atomization and to prevent "pooling". This is why on a race car a coolant heated manifold is a very bad thing. Because once the engine is warmed up you dont need to worry about pooling. And yes there is a coolant line running through the plenum, but like SATAN said its only like 1/4"-3/8" or so. I too would hardly count that as a heater for the plenum.

Also G-E, are you talking about moisture in the air freezing up? Is this just from pressure dropping at the throttle body due to the venturi? I dont see how the moisture in the air could freeze unless there was a signifigant pressure drop. Then again the venturi is after the butterfly in the throttle body so that doesnt work either. I guess i'm just not understanding what you are talking about.
Surley you are not actually talking about it raining at -10.

[84z31]

it does weird things up there in Canada. :lol:

Merovingian wrote: Surley you are not actually talking about it raining at -10.